To make it easier to follow and critique I retitled the logs and put it all in one post. This comparison between factory LTR6 plugs the showed a measured gap of.028 and NGK LTR7 gapped to .028. The comparison was completed on the same tank of fuel, same ambient temp, same road, and same version of AP firmware over three different days.

Cobb stage 2 factory plug:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/x2oomynv2vso41c/Cobbstage2factoryplug1.csv
https://www.dropbox.com/s/uwhsafp3ywqa6de/Cobbstage2factoryplug2.csv
https://www.dropbox.com/s/utrlq2dbn88cevi/Cobbstage2factoryplug3.csv

Cobb stage 2 LTR7IX-11

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xpdmzlj4f4c9xk3/Cobbstage2LTR7IX-11plug1.csv
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0e0a14zvf06jnst/Cobbstage2LTR7IX-11plug2.csv
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0e0a14zvf06jnst/Cobbstage2LTR7IX-11plug2.csv

FSW stage 2 LTR7IX-11

https://www.dropbox.com/s/bixtgtxfboo2whn/FSWstage2LTR7IX-11plug1.csv
https://www.dropbox.com/s/u07fm71t6ito6bu/FSWstage2LTR7IX-11plug2.csv

 

here is a thread I did a little while ago.

A Little Spark Plug Tech

Hopefully it can answer some of your questions.

 

Here's some more logs with the FSW stage 2 tune and the LTR7IX-11 plugs. This time I included Ignition correction for cylinders 1-4. It seems like a lot of variation?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/vbax9vpsl344l0c/fsw2.csv
https://www.dropbox.com/s/qd6czi4ywie04zs/fsw3.csv
https://www.dropbox.com/s/92k9xbij5f9pq3a/fsw4.csv
https://www.dropbox.com/s/njlid6wkaeu9ejq/fsw5.csv
https://www.dropbox.com/s/eks47g2tk1sq8gv/fsw6.csv
https://www.dropbox.com/s/t2x8agshds3hd3e/fsw7.csv

 

Here's some more logs with the FSW stage 2 tune and the LTR7IX-11 plugs. This time I included Ignition correction for cylinders 1-4. It seems like a lot of variation?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2x1pg5f380yflml/fsw2.csv
https://www.dropbox.com/s/xeysyohga3kjquj/fsw3.csv
https://www.dropbox.com/s/npu93jx5imr6z9x/fsw4.csv
https://www.dropbox.com/s/18ar6sy8z5mev8g/fsw5.csv
https://www.dropbox.com/s/l484qk0eqiw6di7/fsw6.csv
https://www.dropbox.com/s/6wa9qj6ee183s6o/fsw7.csv

There is no difference in the logs between the NGK and OEM plugs. Colder plugs prevent pre-ignition and not detonation. The knock sensor only picks up detonation. If the car is running smoothly with no issues the colder plugs are a good purchase and some insurance against pre-ignition.

Cylinder 4 is unhappy in a couple of these logs as it looks to be the noisiest cylinder. There is a relationship between charge temperatures and the correction values. What is probably happening is that as the charge temperatures get into the 70s consistently cyl 4 starts to knock first.

I suggest taking more heatsoaked logs by doing a multi gear pull 2-3-4 taking each gear to redline.

 

For comparison here are some logs with Cobb stage 2 and the ltr7 plugs ign corr 1-4. Less timing is being pulled but it also has less boost. logs 1 and 3 show timing advancing, log 2 has timing being pulled -1.38, log for shows -.5. I will take your advise and log some 2-3-4 pulls soon. Thanks again for reviewing those logs.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6sc068f3mbnxy5j/cobb2ltr7-1.csv
https://www.dropbox.com/s/qoiz4m9m90qpo8a/cobb2ltr7-2.csv
https://www.dropbox.com/s/rgcffauv2e4ijg6/cobb2ltr7-3.csv
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3kszldyfhyrgpmr/cobb2ltr7-4.csv

 

For comparison here are some logs with Cobb stage 2 and the ltr7 plugs. Less timing is being pulled but it also has less boost. logs 1 and 3 show timing advancing, log 2 has timing being pulled -1.38, log for shows -.5 I will take your advise and log some 2-3-4 pulls soon. Thanks again for reviewing those logs.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/vhwaj1sm0x0jnoz/cobb2ltr7-1.csv
https://www.dropbox.com/s/u7jeuy00ycv1ef0/cobb2ltr7-2.csv
https://www.dropbox.com/s/kom36j3kojmphny/cobb2ltr7-3.csv
https://www.dropbox.com/s/rewlc9atki2pr0b/cobb2ltr7-4.csv

Not a problem and yes the COBB map is a bit less aggressive. Putting the motor under higher temperature load usually reveals if a tune is too aggressive.

 

Haha at least you don't drive a Dodge Dart (besides the obvious reasons...)!!

"The Dart—at least 1.4-liter turbo models—uses NGK iridium spark plugs, which retail for $33 each on Mopar’s parts site, but a massive backorder on these plugs meant that we were charged 25 percent extra to get the plugs in posthaste. This pushed the per-plug price to a staggering $43.56. It gets worse—we couldn’t find the plugs from parts suppliers like NAPA or O’Reilly, and even though the plugs are produced by NGK for Mopar, they don’t appear on NGK’s databases. It seems that for now, Chrysler is the sole source for these plugs, and they’re not cheap. Backyard mechanics, take note."
-Car & Driver

 

not sure why the links quit working but its fixed

 

my number 4 cyl went as far as -4 correction with the FSW tune not nearly as bad with the Cobb

 

Randy told me his tune was pulling more timing than needed, IIRC. Even the stock tune pulls timing.

 

I didn't know that. It was weird to me to see it just one cylinder pull that much timing. Still trying to grasp this new found ( to me) information

 

And the 4th cylinder is like that on many ST's including mine. Do a log with Cobb stage 0, it's supposed to be the same as stock.

 

Haven't done the Cobb 0 tune yet but her are some 2-4 gear pulls from Cobb Stage 2 and FSW stage 2. Different day different cylinder pulling timing. This time number #3 was unhappy but no -2s, -3s, or -4s.

Cobb

https://www.dropbox.com/s/cf7sdlwpcr5jx04/Cobb2ltr7 2-4,1.csv
https://www.dropbox.com/s/1z02egcen17ax12/Cobb2ltr7 2-4,2.csv
https://www.dropbox.com/s/s4b619gde9u376m/Cobb2ltr7 2-4,3.csv
https://www.dropbox.com/s/1npqgdmii63uwq7/Cobb2ltr7 2-4,4.csv

FSW

https://www.dropbox.com/s/hg0369sm1bb11bd/fsw2ltr7 2-4,1.csv
https://www.dropbox.com/s/2wxuaflw3l9857f/fsw2ltr7 2-4,2.csv
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vmtpbl4dinsa1vc/fsw2ltr7 2-4,3.csv

 

The timing being pulled was not too dramatic this time. I made a quick graph to highlight what's going on in the log. Sometimes it's easier to show this graphically.

 

Kevin was anything changed from the last set of logs in terms of hardware or fuel or tune?

 

Post 224 ltr6 with Cobb stage 2 and FSW stage 2 same tunes ltr7 all on the same tank of gas, same ambient temp 3rd gear pulls.

Post 229 ltr7 only same FSW stage 2 tune. Same tank of gas as 224. 3rd gear pull, ign corr 1 thru 4.

Post 231 ltr7 only same Cobb stage 2 tune. Same tank of fuel as 224. 3rd gear pull ign corr 1 thru 4.

Post 242 was done on a different tank of fuel from the same station same tunes. Ltr7 plugs, 2nd thru 4th pull, ign corr 1 thru 4. Same Cobb stage 2 and FSW stage 2 tunes

 

I go to an auto parts store to buy a gapping tool and shims for my denso iridium plugs (cold step 1), and the guy basically said iridium plugs should never be re-gapped, it's too brittle, don't put shims in it'll damage the electrode, etc. and scares me out of buying the tools for the time being.
Is he full of it? Do I not need to check each plug for the same gap distance? Should I just throw them in the car as is?

 

I had zero issues gaping my NGKs. You just have to be gentle and patient. Got them installed on Saturday and everything is running perfect.

 

Yes they are iridium. Anti seize for sure. If you stayed at a Holiday Inn you're good to go. I use feeler gauges to the desired gap. Hold the plug in a vise gentle tap it doesn't take much force. Old plug lefty loosey new plug righty tighty. NGK come .044 I put mine at .028

 

.044 that seems very high. When you gapped them does the top arm kinda sag down now? Is that ok?

 

The key is to not apply pressure against the electrode tip. So opening the gap would be a challenge.

Good thing is that you only need to close the gap on them. Tap the ground strap gently to close the gap and measure the gap with feeler gauges. Don't force anything against the electrode tip and all will be well.

 

No dialectic grease needed then I take it. Awesome thank you.

 

Hey Alex did something catch your eye on that last set of logs or were you just curious? I sent Randy an email for new tunes for the firmware upgrade. When u get them I'll run more logs with v200 maps.

 

That and the spacers swatch tool I was about to purchase. I'll head out now and grab em along with my first oil change at 5,000 miles Penzoil ultra 5w-30 right?

Edit: just for the record my densos arrived are measuring a gap of .0265

 

Originally posted by Kent in this thread. EnchinsuOcha you are correct in assuming that

http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/pdf/tb-0630111antisieze.pdf

 

Wow did not know that. Thanks.

 

If you've sheared the top of your spark plug off you torque wrench is broken. By the same rational should the plug require more torque (and it will) during removal it would be just as likely to shear. I'll take the precaution and apply anti seize.

 

I guarantee it will require more force for removal than the recommended install torque settings

 

I guarantee it will require more force for removal than the recommended install torque settings

View attachment 33018

The ST Helm manual calls for 13nm. I just guessed as my torque wrench doesn't go down that far.

 

I was just sent a pm by someone asking if they should change plugs as they are now at stage 2. I'm definitely not a protuner by any means and I'm still learning but I'd thought I'd post my response to further discussion on the topic.

I'm still testing but it would seem that one step cooler has no real over all effect on a stage 2. Working with Alex the numbers look good and he supports the idea of running the coldest plug you can get away with to reduce the chance of pre ignition and that doesn't effect drive ability. Skizzo is working on long term drivability data but I think it's looking like no problems. It seems the hotter plugs. may be for emissions purposes. I'm curious what the number will look like in our Phoenix summers. Day time temps around 115 +/- and night temps around 95 +/-. My recommendation is fill up with a tank of gas your going to use, take some data logs to post, and let those in the know critique your numbers.

 

Another old school way to gauge if your plugs are in the correct heat range for the motor is to read the ground strap by looking for the annealing point.

This article quickly explains

http://www.pcmforless.com/index.php...om_content&view=article&id=53:how-to-read-spark-plugs&catid=34:tuning&Itemid=56

Kevin the previous and current logs you posted were consistent with each other which is a good sign.

 

I'm worried about using a couple of these, does this picture tell you anything?

 

You bendee spark plug electrode?

 

Out of four denso's itv22 that I got from Edge, one had center electrode bent like yours out of the box....Gapped them at 0.28" and had random misfire around 5200 rpm twice in an hour driving enthusiastically..Took them out and carefully re-gaped them at 0.26".. Big difference, before I would get dead range in my gas pedal while slowly rolling into boost almost like fuel mapping issue....not anymore, strong, even and linear spool all the way up to 6000rpm. Running mr. T's 93 V5 aggro, forge IC,K&N filter.....After installing Denso's didn't do reflash, didn't reset KAM or change anything other than spark plugs...my old plugs( orig. fomoco ) looked good after 32k, nicely tan brownish colored...

 

So you through it in even with a center electro bent?

 

Yes I've put them in with one of them having slightly bent electrode, just like yours....hmmm makes me think if any other forum members got one spark plug tip bent in a set of four as it appears we have pattern forming....