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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Would it be any benefit to run a WMI on a stock turbo ST?
 

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Yes!

But why not go bigger turbo instead for a little bit more $$$? I've yet to go meth but it's next on my list.
 

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With a good WMI system you will certainly be able to take the k03 to its limits. How much that puppy can flow will be your next bottleneck. As far as is it worth it, the detonation and heat control aspects of the spray make it worth it in my mind. If you do it make sure to get a custom tune. With the boost in octane and added insurance of the water cooling things down, with a custom tune you will be able to get every bit out of the stock turbo that it will allow.
 

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With a good WMI system you will certainly be able to take the k03 to its limits. How much that puppy can flow will be your next bottleneck. As far as is it worth it, the detonation and heat control aspects of the spray make it worth it in my mind. If you do it make sure to get a custom tune. With the boost in octane and added insurance of the water cooling things down, with a custom tune you will be able to get every bit out of the stock turbo that it will allow.
Yes for the stock turbo I was thinking more for safety than performance... But are there other things I should buy first before going with WMI? I do want the Boomba spacers... That would give me a space to inject it from. I'm going to get a stratified ots + tune then when I go BT/WM get it custom. I'm wondering should I clean the intake valves so that gunk build up doesn't get run through the engine when it sprays.. I would like to have the WM system in place before the Big turbo would be put in.
 

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Yes for the stock turbo I was thinking more for safety than performance... But are there other things I should buy first before going with WMI? I do want the Boomba spacers... That would give me a space to inject it from. I'm going to get a stratified ots + tune then when I go BT/WM get it custom. I'm wondering should I clean the intake valves so that gunk build up doesn't get run through the engine when it sprays.. I would like to have the WM system in place before the Big turbo would be put in.
Ya man there are a lot of variables to consider with the whole thing. For the Boomba spacers, the intake manifold spacer for your purposes is overkill for injection. If you want it go for it though, increased plenum is supposed to equal increased area under the curve. I was spraying at a Boomba throttle body spacer for a bit before going to a cold pipe bung. The spacer is a nice piece and worked really well, cold pipe is just better. If you use a throttle body spacer either get a kit with a solenoid, or install a solenoid yourself (it's needed when spraying into an area that sees vacuum).

I haven't heard any problems with people installing a water kit and not cleaning valves before hand. Properly cleaning them requires cleaning products that I have heard are no good, I've also heard that they are though. You know how it goes. I wouldn't worry about cleaning them before though. Having it on before a big turbo install is a good plan, lightens up the work load a bit.

As for other mods first, it really depends on what you want for your car. It's all up to you. I'm a fan of the water meth. On the stock turbo, there isn't really anything else you could add to increase output. The water meth will allow you to push it a bit further though, while keeping some piece of mind.
 

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Ya man there are a lot of variables to consider with the whole thing. For the Boomba spacers, the intake manifold spacer for your purposes is overkill for injection. If you want it go for it though, increased plenum is supposed to equal increased area under the curve. I was spraying at a Boomba throttle body spacer for a bit before going to a cold pipe bung. The spacer is a nice piece and worked really well, cold pipe is just better. If you use a throttle body spacer either get a kit with a solenoid, or install a solenoid yourself (it's needed when spraying into an area that sees vacuum).

I haven't heard any problems with people installing a water kit and not cleaning valves before hand. Properly cleaning them requires cleaning products that I have heard are no good, I've also heard that they are though. You know how it goes. I wouldn't worry about cleaning them before though. Having it on before a big turbo install is a good plan, lightens up the work load a bit.

As for other mods first, it really depends on what you want for your car. It's all up to you. I'm a fan of the water meth. On the stock turbo, there isn't really anything else you could add to increase output. The water meth will allow you to push it a bit further though, while keeping some piece of mind.
You can actually get much more out of the stock turbo with W/I.
 

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Good question. It's definitely something I've been toying with lately, something to do about the same time I throw on a high flow DP and re-tune. My only hold up is it will be the biggest project I've done to this car and I want to make sure it's worth the time/effort. Right now I don't feel like I'm pushing the engine close enough to the limits for it to matter but once I go stage 3 that may be a different story. I'd like a couple more psi out of the k03 than I'm pushing right now and at that point it may be an important step.
 

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Without a big turbo I wouldn't bother. Here's why:
  1. With your Depo FMIC and snorkel, you are already keeping the charge air temps close to ambient in most cases.
  2. WMI introduces more potential boost leak locations.
  3. A failed check valve or solenoid could lead to engine hydro lock.
  4. Getting the intake valves hot cleans them reasonably well (although long-term WMI does better), but...
  5. No one has documented that (unlike some of the BMWs) gunk buildup on our valves causes noticeable performance degradation nor increased risk of LSPI or other potential bad things.

IOW, I just don't see the risk:reward benefit when running a stock turbo. You said you want to increase safety; sure, keeping the charge air temps cooler even after a long pull all the way up through the gears will help. But getting that benefit means increasing other risks from failure of the WMI system.

Unless you are tracking your car most weekends... But for a daily driver driven aggressively on the stock turbo, I wouldn't bother.

I'm sure you'll get opposing opinions! :)

All the best,
Mark
 

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Without a big turbo I wouldn't bother. Here's why:
  1. With your Depo FMIC and snorkel, you are already keeping the charge air temps close to ambient in most cases.
  2. WMI introduces more potential boost leak locations.
  3. A failed check valve or solenoid could lead to engine hydro lock.
  4. Getting the intake valves hot cleans them reasonably well (although long-term WMI does better), but...
  5. No one has documented that (unlike some of the BMWs) gunk buildup on our valves causes noticeable performance degradation nor increased risk of LSPI or other potential bad things.

IOW, I just don't see the risk:reward benefit when running a stock turbo. You said you want to increase safety; sure, keeping the charge air temps cooler even after a long pull all the way up through the gears will help. But getting that benefit means increasing other risks from failure of the WMI system.

Unless you are tracking your car most weekends... But for a daily driver driven aggressively on the stock turbo, I wouldn't bother.

I'm sure you'll get opposing opinions! :)

All the best,
Mark
How does the inter-cooler and snorkel accounts for higher than normal ambient temperatures? It won't, it doesn't and that's false.

A W/I system will always make more power than just an inter-cooler upgrade period and that isn't up for debate. It will also allow the car with the same aggressive timing map that it does when conditions are ideal; the problem is conditions are hardly ever ideal.

How would it introduce boost leaks? Post inter cooler is a good location and as long as you used thread sealant (not tape) it won't leak.

You can get way more out of the stock turbo with W/I than with just an inter-cooler upgrade, I'll show you, stay tuned...
 
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How does the inter-cooler and snorkel accounts for higher than normal ambient temperatures? It won't, it doesn't and that's false.

A W/I system will always make more power than just an inter-cooler upgrade period and that isn't up for debate. It will also allow the car with the same aggressive timing map that it does when conditions are ideal; the problem is conditions are hardly ever ideal.

How would it introduce boost leaks? Post inter cooler is a good location and as long as you used thread tape it won't leak.

You can get way more out of the stock turbo with W/I than with just an inter-cooler upgrade, I'll show you, stay tuned...
What? Dude @LMStone510 knows his stuff. No matter what you do adding any WMI system is going to add places for leaks and for failure. It just will. Risks can be mitigated but they are still risks.

As for making substantially more power on the stock turbo...I'm still going to say no you can't, at least not reliably. Once you get near the 300whp mark the K03 is just tapped out. Doesn't matter if guys have been running e30 with WMI, 300whp is about as much as we can see on the stock turbo. Someone apparently cracked a bit above that a while ago on nitrous (see the highest HP thread). Feel free to prove me and many other people wrong.
 

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What? Dude @LMStone510 knows his stuff. No matter what you do adding any WMI system is going to add places for leaks and for failure. It just will. Risks can be mitigated but they are still risks.

As for making substantially more power on the stock turbo...I'm still going to say no you can't, at least not reliably. Once you get near the 300whp mark the K03 is just tapped out. Doesn't matter if guys have been running e30 with WMI, 300whp is about as much as we can see on the stock turbo. Someone apparently cracked a bit above that a while ago on nitrous (see the highest HP thread). Feel free to prove me and many other people wrong.
I ordered my AEM kit today and it will be here Thurs.

I've never had a leakage from W/I nozzles, I know what boost leaks are my SRT-4 had them. I put the nozzle on that car in the outlet tank elbow of the inter-cooler because I didn't want to mess up my new Samco silicone hoses.

Of course W/I systems fail but it doesn't mean that possible failure can't be accounted for and you don't need a fancy fail safe device.
 

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Please post a thread that follows your WI install and results @djfourmoney
 

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I ordered my AEM kit today and it will be here Thurs.

I've never had a leakage from W/I nozzles, I know what boost leaks are my SRT-4 had them. I put the nozzle on that car in the outlet tank elbow of the inter-cooler because I didn't want to mess up my new Samco silicone hoses.

Of course W/I systems fail but it doesn't mean that possible failure can't be accounted for and you don't need a fancy fail safe device.
I too used an AEM kit. I thought it was well put together and never had issues with it.

You don't necessarily need a fancy failsafe like the high end Aquamist setups (though it doesn't hurt at all), but I would have something. If you are going to be using this system to push your car as hard as you suggest, you're going to want a failsafe of some kind. The AEM kit is really simple to hook up to one. Spraying pre throttle body saves you some headache, but adding a solenoid isn't a bad plan. Those AEM nozzles have been known to leak. Over all though I thought it was a high quality kit.
 

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How does the inter-cooler and snorkel accounts for higher than normal ambient temperatures? It won't, it doesn't and that's false.
I never said that. I said a snorkel and the Depo FMIC together do a good job of keeping charge air temps close to ambient.


A W/I system will always make more power than just an inter-cooler upgrade period and that isn't up for debate. It will also allow the car with the same aggressive timing map that it does when conditions are ideal; the problem is conditions are hardly ever ideal.
I never said WMI wouldn't allow for more power. I tried to say that in my view, for a daily driver, the gain comes with risk. What I didn't say was that you need a custom tune to maximize the gain over an OTS tune. I believe you think the risks are less than what I think. So let's clarify "under what circumstances."

If you have an OTS tune, the risks are not huge, especially if you inject pre-throttle body. Most tuners limit max load to ~2.4 or thereabouts for OTS tunes and you can run the car there without WMI no problem. IOW, you don't need WMI to output load to 2.4, so the gain is minimal. You get some better knock protection, and some help keeping charge air temps down (which, with the snorkel and the FMIC are already close to ambient most of the time), so the tune really won't be able to add much timing in too many places -- hence, little gain.

If you have custom tune, then IMHO the risks are bigger, because your tune may target a higher maximum load, and will have more aggressive tables impacting timing. So, if you are in the middle of a pull and you run out of fluid, you are likely going to get some extra knock events and some pulled timing. Enough to cause engine damage? Dunno. Depends. But it's a bigger risk I hope you will agree than running an OTS tune which is calibrated to be ignorant of any WMI system that may be present.


How would it introduce boost leaks? Post inter cooler is a good location and as long as you used thread tape it won't leak.
Any additional joints post-turbo are a potential boost leak source. How big of a risk? Dunno. Depends. Depends on the quality of the kit and the workmanship of the installer. Plenty of threads on this board where experienced, well-intentioned enthusiasts installed a new FMIC and shortly thereafter post that they've got a boost leak.

FWIW I wouldn't use teflon thread tape if that's what you are referring to. Teflon tape doesn't like acid and solvents, like in oil. Some of the sound symposer delete kits that come with a T and a blanking plug for the NPT hole in the blanking plate come with instructions specifically recommending not to use teflon tape.


You can get way more out of the stock turbo with W/I than with just an inter-cooler upgrade, I'll show you, stay tuned...
Sure! Post up a build thread! That's what this forum is for, right? Different people using different ways of pushing the envelope benefits everyone!

All the best,
Mark
 

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Personally I think a stock ST is a great candidate for WMI. The reason I say this is because most tunes run the K03 up to the ragged edge of its efficiency range and a turbo that is being pushed like that is going to be producing a lot of heat. Running a WMI system can help offset that. In-cylinder temps are one of the biggest enemies of a turbocharged engine and WMI will go a long way toward reducing those temps, making it less likely you will suffer a heat-related failure like cracked/chipped ring lands, etc.

You're not going to get much more power out of the K03 with WMI as it just simply runs out of breath far too quickly, but you will gain a lot in terms of knock suppressions and LSPI prevention. If those are the thing you're interested then you should definitely go for it. However, if you're expecting to break the 300whp mark without upgrading the turbo I think you will find it's still not possible.

Also, unless you have a need for manifold injection, go with a charge pipe injection location. There are a lot more complexities to installing a system that will have to deal with vacuum when the nozzle is installed after the throttle body. When you install it on the charge pipe, all you need is a check valve and you're done, it should be very reliable and last a long time. If you are injecting after the throttle body using a TB or IM spacer, you need to be running a solenoid to control flow. If you're after simple knock suppression, you can get that with an AEM or DO system and a CP-E charge pipe. No need to go crazy and get spacers, solenoids, check valves, distribution blocks, etc. The other upside to charge pipe injection is that the methanol/water mix will have more time to interact with the charge air, this means lower charge air temps and better fluid atomization.
 

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Personally I think a stock ST is a great candidate for WMI. The reason I say this is because most tunes run the K03 up to the ragged edge of its efficiency range and a turbo that is being pushed like that is going to be producing a lot of heat. Running a WMI system can help offset that. In-cylinder temps are one of the biggest enemies of a turbocharged engine and WMI will go a long way toward reducing those temps, making it less likely you will suffer a heat-related failure like cracked/chipped ring lands, etc.

You're not going to get much more power out of the K03 with WMI as it just simply runs out of breath far too quickly, but you will gain a lot in terms of knock suppressions and LSPI prevention. If those are the thing you're interested then you should definitely go for it. However, if you're expecting to break the 300whp mark without upgrading the turbo I think you will find it's still not possible.

Also, unless you have a need for manifold injection, go with a charge pipe injection location. There are a lot more complexities to installing a system that will have to deal with vacuum when the nozzle is installed after the throttle body. When you install it on the charge pipe, all you need is a check valve and you're done, it should be very reliable and last a long time. If you are injecting after the throttle body using a TB or IM spacer, you need to be running a solenoid to control flow. If you're after simple knock suppression, you can get that with an AEM or DO system and a CP-E charge pipe. No need to go crazy and get spacers, solenoids, check valves, distribution blocks, etc. The other upside to charge pipe injection is that the methanol/water mix will have more time to interact with the charge air, this means lower charge air temps and better fluid atomization.
Completely agree. I will say though, that running a solenoid really is great insurance and is painfully simple to install. It's two wires and you are done. The Snow solenoid I installed was like $60. With that I know it's not leaking, check valves just like to fail. I definitely think a solenoid is worth the extra money if you're already dropping that much on a decent WMI system. There is even a great place to mount it on the side of the battery box so long as the symposer is gone. Just find the correct screw and add some loctite and you are set. That's what I did and it held up great.
 

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Please post a thread that follows your WI install and results @djfourmoney
There is an entire thread with very little in it, I am not trying to rectify that. Your assumption is that I've never owned a turbo charged car before....

When the time comes, I will share.
 
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