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Any concerns about water during heavy downpours and bugs/dirt being directed into the filter? We have lots of both here.
Maybe a universal outterwear (filter cover) could be used over the inlet to repel water and debris? Just an idea. I wouldn't think it would hinder flow by a huge amount.
I use them on my ATV filters and on my 7.3 filter.
 
Thank you for the info. I am sure there are differences between these types of filters. Are you saying that droplets will make it passed a K&N style filter?

I think even if some liquid makes it passed the filter, at least, the torturous path for the droplet moving through the filter would have allowed it more time to evaporate vs. just being injected directly into the compressor. This is my thought, I am not a filter expert so I will leave that to you. Again this is all experimental, and this is where we can come together to figure it out.
Please don't think I'm trying to discourage you from your experimentation, I think it's great that you are trying to give us in the ST community other options with regards to intake snorkels.

I don't have data on K&N's filters and their ability to trap aerosols, perhaps they could provide that data. What I'm saying is, when we provide coalescing filters to our industrial customers, the filter housing is also part of the design because the vessel that the filter is in needs to provide a way to drain the liquid that is coalesced. If the correct filter is being used, the aerosols will coalesce and the liquid will be trapped inside the filter housing or vessel. They can also provide particulate removal, but this only works if the liquids are able to be removed from the system. Depending on the flow rate, pore size of the filter, size of the aerosols, etc., what you are proposing could certainly provide benefit, but the filter type and housing it lives in must be factored in to your overall design if it is to work effectively and not cause problems for the intake system and turbo.
 
this is the concept behind meth mouth. We are aware that the filter element is in front of the injection point.

The purpose of injection into the turbo, pre-compressor has benefits for intake charge cooling and overall turbocharger efficiency.

When you cool the air entering the compressor, you reduce the compressor outlet temps because your T_inlet has a bigger effect on T_outlet rather then T_outlet alone having meth injection, all else being equal. The reason is isentropic efficiency of the compressor being governed strongly by T_inlet. Cooling inlet temps to the compressor has the effect of reducing overall turbine speed, increasing turbo efficiency on both the hot side and cold side. The turbine does not have to spin as fast to produce the same boost, since you reduced the inlet temp and you are island hopping around the compressor map, shifting downward on your Nr RPM bands as well. It will essentially think, it's pulling in winter air, as opposed to hot summer air, and we all know winter air makes power. That is why T_inlet plays a huge impact on power.

The downside of doing this is if you dont evaporate all the liquid before it enters the compressor, the rotating assembly on this small a turbo spins at close to 180k-200k RPM or more. A water droplet that has not evaporated, being a liquid, at those impeller speeds acts like a bullet and can cause erosion to the impeller vanes.

If one can manage to evaporate the entirety of the injection of water/meth before entering the compressor, you get to reap the rewards of running less wastegate duty cycle, lower turbine speeds, lower IATs, more air flow, higher efficiency (greatly reduced outlet temps) etc... I am not up to date on the latest rally doings, but I think that the rally guys and some other sanctioned race teams love to spray meth into the compressor for this reason.

So this is where the filter element comes in. The filter can manage to soak up, any liquid droplets that have not vaporized, you would be protecting the compressor from liquid and allow the droplets to adhere to the filter element and evaporate. At this point, you would almost gaurantee no water droplets cross over the filter element, and would just sit in the element and evaporate as air flows over them.

I have personally experimented with this method on my BMW 135i back in 2009-2011 with good results, which is why I am doing it now. I used to spray 1000ml/min into the turbos at the filter elements with an observed reduction in wastegate dutycycle, this confirms that the rotating assembly is spinning slower because target boost comes in at a lower impeller speed. So the turbos were happy. I ran this way for 2 years on stock turbos.

Anyway, we are digressing. But in theory, the METH MOUTH intake snorkel is for those who have aftermarket filter elements and understand how to use pre compressor methanol injection. Also, this is experimental so don't hold us to anything yet since METH MOUTH has not been released or tested on this platform.

There are probably idiosyncrasies that this platform has that we are not familiar with, yet. Which is why I am introducing this to the community for basic input and possible beta testers who run heavy tunes and methanol injection and are willing to try this method of cooling..

Note that, when you spray methanol in this manner. You CANNOT rely on it as a fueling supplement, since you cannot time the methanol stream to make it to your combustion chambers as you would do in port methanol injection. This is only for controlling IATs.

If anyone has any input, it would be nice to hear what you think. Thank you

- D
My old turbo rally car used a draw-through design (Weber 45DCOE > T04B turbo > Intake manifold) and the atomized fuel did wonders to keep charge air temps down. We had a backfire once and that caused a little too much excitement (the compressor housing, or what was left of it, was found buried in the radiator core...), but that was our own fault for running a little too lean with a little too much boost.

My only concern if you inject ahead of the air filter is how different air filters will handle being hit with water/meth. The factory paper filter might degrade/tear, and oiled filters might not pass the water (or the meth might remove the oil in the filter, reducing the filter's ability to trap smaller particulates). The basic concept of pre-turbo air cooling however, as I have seen from my own experience, is quite sound.

Hope that helps,
Mark
 
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Here is a picture of the inlet and converging section. 6.5" wide to pull in some air.



Sorry for the cell phone pic...
Looks really amazing. Of course green WOULD look way better :wink:

I take it this is no drill using some kind of factory bolting point?
 
Nice looking snorkel.
Please do not inject water / methanol / any liquid upstream of the filter!
Wetted filter media has a much higher differential pressure than dry media, due to surface tension.
Oiled cotton doesn't necessarily count as wet, the oil is absorbed into the fibers and is only on the fiber surface, the total oil quantity is very low (unless you over-oil like an idiot).
There wouldn't be enough heat in the air to support evaporation of much water / methanol anyway at that point. Post-turbo is the only sensible way to go.
The only time adding fuel before a compressor makes sense is in positive displacement / screw supercharger applications, in those cases the fuel helps the rotors seal and increases compressor efficiency. It makes no sense in a turbo/centrifugal application, and draw through turbo/carb systems were a compromise that happened to work, not the best solution.
I'd also prefer to keep anything combustible as far into the intake tract as possible from a safety standpoint.
 
Discussion starter · #54 ·
Looks really amazing. Of course green WOULD look way better :wink:

I take it this is no drill using some kind of factory bolting point?
No drilling required. Bolts in to factory bolt pattern.
 
Discussion starter · #55 ·
Is this going to be able to mount to the crash beam without all the shrouds? My front end is gutted.
View attachment 98878
Yes it will work without the shrouds.

Nice looking snorkel.
Please do not inject water / methanol / any liquid upstream of the filter!
Wetted filter media has a much higher differential pressure than dry media, due to surface tension.
Oiled cotton doesn't necessarily count as wet, the oil is absorbed into the fibers and is only on the fiber surface, the total oil quantity is very low (unless you over-oil like an idiot).
There wouldn't be enough heat in the air to support evaporation of much water / methanol anyway at that point. Post-turbo is the only sensible way to go.
The only time adding fuel before a compressor makes sense is in positive displacement / screw supercharger applications, in those cases the fuel helps the rotors seal and increases compressor efficiency. It makes no sense in a turbo/centrifugal application, and draw through turbo/carb systems were a compromise that happened to work, not the best solution.
I'd also prefer to keep anything combustible as far into the intake tract as possible from a safety standpoint.
Thank you smallblock, I think you are right. It might be more of a headache right now then it's worth. I think we are going to sell the BIG MOUTH snorkels first.
 
Discussion starter · #59 ·
I think you could sell A LOT of these in the sub $100 price range. I understand if that's not possible though.
I'm sure we could sell more, but we wouldnt be making much on them at that price and we don't want to go out of business. Because then, no one gets anything...

:)
 
I'm sure we could sell more, but we wouldnt be making much on them at that price and we don't want to go out of business. Because then, no one gets anything...

:)
With the price of materials and time to produce each I'd say you're gonna have $80 in each of these... Factor in R&D as well and the fact that you have to make money yet be fair as well... You still want to remain competitive also on price point.. I'm thinking somewhere around $125 for a basic snorkle is prob gonna be a good price point. Most of us already have filters with no desire to buy the frpp and get something we don't need.


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