Did you match all the BL timing tables? The Optimum Power table can be easy to miss.

After this Cylinder Pressure Ceiling is next

After this Pre ignition tables

After this MBT tables.

 

I only added spark to Borderline and Cylinder Press. Ceiling.
Wouldn't the limit source change if it was using one of the other tables?
The other thing is the base and requested timing keeps going up, it's the final cylinder timing that stays at the ceiling.
None of the other tables are even close to 15.5. Most are 20+.

I had hoped the limit source would change to point me in the right direction, it stayed in Borderline tho.

I just checked the tables and I did change them all. Optimum and 1-15.



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What fuel are you running that's allowing so much timing??


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That's funny. I started this as an E30-E50 tune, but this has all been on Sunoco 93. I'm sure I'll need to mix when the weather gets hotter though.



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That's pretty crazy, I'm seeing ign correction on my tunes and I'm running shell 92 with 3 gallons of 101 mixed in,

And these are on mild OTS tunes and Randy's file lol


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Once you start getting further along with your experiments in timing I highly suggest investing in a lot of dyno time before going much further. I doubt there's a ton of room left before you get to MBT(but maybe not.) With an ethanol mix it's entirely possible to get past MBT before you start seeing corrections.

 

Yes, I agree. I have access to a free mustang dyno, but wanted to get close with steet tuning so I didn't waste time figuring out the software. Which is good because I still can't get around this ceiling yet.



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timing may or maynot be blended using the HDFX. Until logging is avail to know what part of each hdfx table your in its a guess to what table you are running in. Thats why currently the "semi hack" (and understand I have to also do it at times) is to make all the tables the same. The vehicle is supposed to run OP table at WOT but datalogs have proven that isnt always the case, even with changes to pedal criteria to enter.

 

If you mean all the tables in Borderline (OP and 1-15), I did make them all the same in the high load cells.

I keep going back to this- both source codes show it staying in Borderline, and the timing base continues to rise. It's the final cyl timing that flatlines above 6100, even tho the base and requested continue to rise. Like there is another limiter that I'm missing, or can't be seen in ATR? I thought Freek had pushed 17* on one car tho.



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If you mean all the tables in Borderline (OP and 1-15), I did make them all the same in the high load cells.

I keep going back to this- both source codes show it staying in Borderline, and the timing base continues to rise. It's the final cyl timing that flatlines above 6100, even tho the base and requested continue to rise. Like there is another limiter that I'm missing, or can't be seen in ATR? I thought Freek had pushed 17* on one car tho.

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Your missing the point though. Your logged spark source is "incorrect" persay pointing to just borderline. Borderline has 1-15 tables plus OP if they are all defined as "definitions of what points will be used". Tables with a 1 in their column are used, 0 means that table isnt put into the logic. For instance a Coyote Mustang uses 1-12 and OP.

Cam advance and retard points or "actual events" point to a place the ECM averages.....it averages between multiple defined tables to approximate spark (as well as torque/load/ve). So what im trying to say...you might be using 20% of table 8 and 80% of table 12 (always totals 100%) for a given mapped point. If you were logging HDFX listings of a pull it would look something like this....

This is from a Raptor I was working on. They only use 1-5 and dont even use OP. Take a look at the way HDFX works, that will help you understand how it interpolates spark (just think it ties into a crap load of other things) View attachment Stock Raptor NA Pull.zip

 

also to note, you also have MBT timing tables....those need to be either the same or higher. The pcm will always use the lower of the tables. If MBT timing tables are lower that what you have set in Borderline, it will use MBT. It can even be an issue with the logging parameter not displaying spark source correctly.

 

Ah, I remember this being an issue. Give Justin an email, he was able to find the table that was at fault. BTW, it was 22* of timing, not 17.

 

E85?? Any dynos?


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Here's what I think is going on.

First of all, the base timing keeps going up because it is an average between all the cylinders once compensations are added. You are riding the BL tables and the knock sensor is adding the rest of your timing.

Once one cylinder reaches the 15.5 limit then that cylinder will stay there. The other cylinders that have NOT reached that limit will continue going up. This will increase the base timing value you are seeing since it is an AVG between the cylinders.

The value holding you at 15.5 is probably this little combination here:

 

Here's what I think is going on.

First of all, the base timing keeps going up because it is an average between all the cylinders once compensations are added. You are riding the BL tables and the knock sensor is adding the rest of your timing.

Once one cylinder reaches the 15.5 limit then that cylinder will stay there. The other cylinders that have NOT reached that limit will continue going up. This will increase the base timing value you are seeing since it is an AVG between the cylinders.

The value holding you at 15.5 is probably this little combination here:

View attachment 35648

View attachment 35649

Why do you make stuff so easy? I never factored in the -2 based on lambda! I saw that 17.5 but I kept looking for a 15.5 limit. Thank you sir. I'll change and re-log. E85 resumes tomorrow!
Maybe this falls into what Keven had said earlier, but if the CPL Ceiling became the limit, why did it still show the Limit Source as BL? Because all 4 cylinders were not at the limit yet?

 

Your missing the point though. Your logged spark source is "incorrect" persay pointing to just borderline. Borderline has 1-15 tables plus OP if they are all defined as "definitions of what points will be used". Tables with a 1 in their column are used, 0 means that table isnt put into the logic. For instance a Coyote Mustang uses 1-12 and OP.

Cam advance and retard points or "actual events" point to a place the ECM averages.....it averages between multiple defined tables to approximate spark (as well as torque/load/ve). So what im trying to say...you might be using 20% of table 8 and 80% of table 12 (always totals 100%) for a given mapped point. If you were logging HDFX listings of a pull it would look something like this....

This is from a Raptor I was working on. They only use 1-5 and dont even use OP. Take a look at the way HDFX works, that will help you understand how it interpolates spark (just think it ties into a crap load of other things)

I understand a little better when you put it that way. I'll review your log and try to learn. Thank you.

Kevin @ Wicked
also to note, you also have MBT timing tables....those need to be either the same or higher. The pcm will always use the lower of the tables. If MBT timing tables are lower that what you have set in Borderline, it will use MBT. It can even be an issue with the logging parameter not displaying spark source correctly

That's taken care of for sure. The only tables in play (that I know of) are BL and CPL Ceiling. As far as high load cells, MBT and PIL Ceiling are WAY higher than the others. It was actually that way with the OTS map. Again, I"m only going by the spark source and limit though.

Slostjoe
Ah, I remember this being an issue. Give Justin an email, he was able to find the table that was at fault. BTW, it was 22* of timing, not 17.

I emailed Justin at lunch today with the datazap and csv file. I'm sure he'll have some insight. I knew it was above 15.5! I assume 22* was where he found MBT for that mix? Did you push any harder than that?
And I'll say, Alex@stratified PMed me and asked for my map to look over. He obviously has no reason to put time into helping me but I thought it showed a lot of character to lend an eye to the situation.

Nice looking graph. Now get the **** outta my thread.

j/k Thanks...

 

subd for awesome insight

 

Well then, I guess it's time for these:

They didn't make it for the February release but I've got them prepared for our next software update in March.

Cheers,
-Braden @ COBB

 

Well then, I guess it's time for these:

View attachment 35677

They didn't make it for the February release but I've got them prepared for our next software update in March.

Cheers,
-Braden @ COBB

We REALLY need to be able to log more parameters at once .

 

Rebuilt the map on the v201 OTS. Alex hit the nail on the head and I understand how/why I was hitting the spark ceiling. I'm still hitting it in the upper RPM, but it's at 17 instead of 15.5 now. I'm not going to add any more spark but i did raise the ceiling at 6000. Everything still looks good and this is still on straight 93.

I may take a break for a while and see how this map performs in warmer weather. I drove on the OTS map for a day while I rebuilt this one, and I can tell you it's a night and day difference on how the car pulls up top. I can only imagine what a true E30/50 tune is going to do. This has been a lot of fun, and thank you all for the help. I'll post up when I make more changes.

Spark Tuning

 

the log shows your CAT's at 20degrees... is that accurate? if so no wonder you can run so much timing!! lol

 

Yes. But it was 55 the other day and had the same results. 80's may be a different story, but mixing E should take care of it and then some.



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What's your ambient? In the last log?


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That's a lot of timing... If I was you I would build a 12, 14, 15 and 17 degree map and compare them on a dyno. See if all that timing is making power or just increasing stress. Given the current OTF map switching this should be a pretty simple test but provide A LOT of insight.

 

^^^ Wise words.

 

My experience tells me that you won't hit MBT on 93 without incurring a good amount of KR.

The cautious approach is always advised however.

 

I agree. I've always had to bring some alky injection into the mix to hit MBT without KR.

However, that is 4°-5° more timing than i've seen any OTS map run on the same fuel. I'd also just like to see how much of a difference it makes.

 

I agree. I'll go after I work with atvfreek on some things so I can test it all at once.
My buddy lets me use the dyno as much as I want as long as there are no scheduled customers, but I don't like to ask over and over. Now that I have a pretty good understanding on the software, I can make changes on the laptop and retest without wasting much time.



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Most of the stock MBT tables are setup in the mid to low 20s, while not dead nuts accurate, it at least gives a reference. So I'd be surprised that he's even close to MBT with only 17 and 19F air

 

Another one from today. I didn't add any spark but I raised the ceiling to 19. I'm shifting between 6k and 6.2k so I won't be hitting it unless I over rev or get crazy positive corrections. I had to lift early but I got around 6k and 17*. We're suppose to get mid 50's early next week so I'm going to keep everything as is and test in that temperature, and hopefully be able to test it everyday as the temp rises and see where the threshold is for temp vs octane. When i find that, I'll start mixing E gas.

The temp is usually around 45-55*F when the track opens in April, so I should have a solid MAP by then.

Spark Tuning V2.1

duster, that would seem to go with Slostjoe running 22* on Egas, right? I know it's just hypothetical, but if the stock MBT points to low-mid 20's and Justin found MBT at 22* on Slostjoe's car, that's at least a reasonable conclusion.

I'll post more info as the temp goes up.

 

Make sure you are doing multiple runs. I have seen corrections vary quite a bit form run to run. I haven't identified if this is noise or indeed knock being picked up. The higher the gear you are in, the more load and heat is placed into the combustion chamber and the more knock prone the car will be.

 

Will do. I usually do 3 a day on my work commute. I can only do up to 5k in 4th gear unless I go outta my way, and I'm not doing 125mph with 80mph snow tires
So far I've had no negative corrections, usually 0 or .5 in 4th from 3k to 5k. The rest will have to wait until the summer tires go back on.

Thanks again.