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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Second track event at Laguna Seca, and I could not finish the day. I got 4 sessions (well almost), and the last session was a no go since my brakes never came back.
First, my first event at Laguna was with the RS brakes and RS pads installed on the front along with ATE200 fluid, and was at the end of July. My brakes were smoking after my first session, but I had traction control on sport, so figure that had a lot to do with it. It was nice getting drive out of corners, but the brakes barely lasted 10 minutes. The rest of that day, I was getting roughly 15 minutes in before fade stepped in to slow things down. But, after cooling down, my brakes always returned.

Fast forward to today...I have Carbotech XP10 pads, Rotora 2 piece rotors, and Motul RBF600 fluid. Plus I installed the RS brake deflectors (but did not cut the flap in front of them...).
I figured I would be good to go. And I was for the first 3 sessions. The brakes felt incredible. I could feel the slots in the brakes, but what was even cooler was that I felt like I could feel the surface of the ground through by right foot on the brake pedal. But pulling off the track after the 3rd session, I felt some sponginess.
4th session out, and the brakes again feel great until about 12-13 minutes in when they start to get mushy. By the 15 minute mark, I pull off as the pedal is dangerously close to the floor, and they wont pump back up...In the pits, I can see that the pads look to have a white chalky color (hmm).
Getting ready to go out for the last session, I run into a first. The first time after cooling down the car the brakes are still pushing to the floor. Can't even pump them up. My day is done, and to make matters even worse, I have to drive home -which is about 2 hours away with traffic. Made it home, and it is late, so I have not attempted to bleed the brakes to see if they boiled and I now have air in the lines...
Likely wont get to the car until Wednesday, seeing as tomorrow is Halloween, and the kids take priority...

But I am looking for ideas on how to get this car to make it through 20 minute sessions...

MW
 

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Second track event at Laguna Seca, and I could not finish the day. I got 4 sessions (well almost), and the last session was a no go since my brakes never came back.
First, my first event at Laguna was with the RS brakes and RS pads installed on the front along with ATE200 fluid, and was at the end of July. My brakes were smoking after my first session, but I had traction control on sport, so figure that had a lot to do with it. It was nice getting drive out of corners, but the brakes barely lasted 10 minutes. The rest of that day, I was getting roughly 15 minutes in before fade stepped in to slow things down. But, after cooling down, my brakes always returned.

Fast forward to today...I have Carbotech XP10 pads, Rotora 2 piece rotors, and Motul RBF600 fluid. Plus I installed the RS brake deflectors (but did not cut the flap in front of them...).
I figured I would be good to go. And I was for the first 3 sessions. The brakes felt incredible. I could feel the slots in the brakes, but what was even cooler was that I felt like I could feel the surface of the ground through by right foot on the brake pedal. But pulling off the track after the 3rd session, I felt some sponginess.
4th session out, and the brakes again feel great until about 12-13 minutes in when they start to get mushy. By the 15 minute mark, I pull off as the pedal is dangerously close to the floor, and they wont pump back up...In the pits, I can see that the pads look to have a white chalky color (hmm).
Getting ready to go out for the last session, I run into a first. The first time after cooling down the car the brakes are still pushing to the floor. Can't even pump them up. My day is done, and to make matters even worse, I have to drive home -which is about 2 hours away with traffic. Made it home, and it is late, so I have not attempted to bleed the brakes to see if they boiled and I now have air in the lines...
Likely wont get to the car until Wednesday, seeing as tomorrow is Halloween, and the kids take priority...

But I am looking for ideas on how to get this car to make it through 20 minute sessions...

MW
I'll have a used set of Velossa Tech Stage 2 brake ducts for sale very soon if you're interested. These replace the fog lights and run 3" hose all the way back. The RS deflectors are really meant to direct air from the dedicated holes in the RS bumber so I'd recommend ditching/modifying those to scoop lower and remove the flap in front. I made some basic stuff out of kydex and ran that as well as the VT stage 2 system with good luck. If the RS kit comes with "heat/dust" shields I'd remove those ASAP and put some reflective tape/wrap on the wheel speed sensor, ball joint and tie rod.
 

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Second track event at Laguna Seca, and I could not finish the day. I got 4 sessions (well almost), and the last session was a no go since my brakes never came back.
First, my first event at Laguna was with the RS brakes and RS pads installed on the front along with ATE200 fluid, and was at the end of July. My brakes were smoking after my first session, but I had traction control on sport, so figure that had a lot to do with it. It was nice getting drive out of corners, but the brakes barely lasted 10 minutes. The rest of that day, I was getting roughly 15 minutes in before fade stepped in to slow things down. But, after cooling down, my brakes always returned.

Fast forward to today...I have Carbotech XP10 pads, Rotora 2 piece rotors, and Motul RBF600 fluid. Plus I installed the RS brake deflectors (but did not cut the flap in front of them...).
I figured I would be good to go. And I was for the first 3 sessions. The brakes felt incredible. I could feel the slots in the brakes, but what was even cooler was that I felt like I could feel the surface of the ground through by right foot on the brake pedal. But pulling off the track after the 3rd session, I felt some sponginess.
4th session out, and the brakes again feel great until about 12-13 minutes in when they start to get mushy. By the 15 minute mark, I pull off as the pedal is dangerously close to the floor, and they wont pump back up...In the pits, I can see that the pads look to have a white chalky color (hmm).
Getting ready to go out for the last session, I run into a first. The first time after cooling down the car the brakes are still pushing to the floor. Can't even pump them up. My day is done, and to make matters even worse, I have to drive home -which is about 2 hours away with traffic. Made it home, and it is late, so I have not attempted to bleed the brakes to see if they boiled and I now have air in the lines...
Likely wont get to the car until Wednesday, seeing as tomorrow is Halloween, and the kids take priority...

But I am looking for ideas on how to get this car to make it through 20 minute sessions...

MW
Sounds like you need Wilwoods and this https://www.velossatechdesign.com/product/2013-2014-focus-st-stage-2-brake-cooling-kit/
 

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How did the pads hold up? Sounds more like a fluid temp issue. I'm thinking about getting Castrol SRF next time around in hopes that they will be solid for a whole year and only need a little bleeding between events... vs doing a few full flushes throughout the year.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
I will get the car on jacks in a couple of hours and bleed the brakes and see what I get. I'm assuming bubbles, which means boiling.

I am interested in what DanMad means by a couple of things he said.
heat/dust shields? The kit did not come with any that I can recall, but if you mean the rubber boot around the pistons, then I can confirm that they are carbonized flakes. They were after the first track event, and I found this during the pad change this past weekend. I am wondering if the calipers already need rebuilding? My calipers are not even blue anymore...well certainly not the original blue, that's for sure. If by heat/dust shield, you are referring to the original ST shield inboard of the rotor, then I can confirm that they are still in place, though I had to trim them a bit to clear the calipers.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I looked at the Velossa tech site, and they only list stage 2 for the 13 and 14 cars.
I believe that the fog light area is different on my 16 ST3. I am not against either losing the fog lights, or putting a hole in the fog light mount though...
The biggest thing is to get air into the area.
I saw that you modified your brake shield in another thread. How does the VTech stage 2 work? Does it provide new shields?
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Ok, update.
Brake pads look good, with some smearing on the rotors. But that is to be expected...
Started to bleed the brakes, and oddly enough, clear fluid, no bubbles, no microbubbles. I was thinking WTF, so I cracked the bleeder open a bit more (to let the Motive Power Bleeder flow) and wow! Huge amounts of air came out. The catch bottle has a clear line, and a good 6 inches of air came out pretty much all at once.
I can assure you that there was ZERO air in the lines at the start of the day. I have gone from stock fluid, to ATE200 to RBF600, and all using the Power bleeder. That bleeder will push out some fluid if you crack the nipple open enough. So I boiled the fluid. Before boiling the fluid, the combination of warm XP10 pads, the slotted rotors, and the RE760S tires, the car was a demon on the brakes. So satisfying...
I have to assume that there is simply far to little airflow while on track. Combine that with my theory that the Torque Vectoring cannot be defeated, the brakes are working going into corners as well as exiting high speed corners where you are pushing lateral Gs. Seat of the pants seems to confirm this, as when I look at the harry's laptimer analysis, the corners where I feel that I am not getting full power (and the foot is to the floor) also happen to be the corners with the longest and largest lateral Gs. Really sucks that you cannot fully defeat TV.
Mind you, I am running with TC fully defeated as I learned my lesson after my first session of my first track day when I ran with TC set to sport. When I got back to pits, the brakes were smoking...and not just a little bit.

So, Danmad. Please let me know when you part with the stage 2 setup since VelossaTech does not have one for my model year, and I am thinking that I could possibly fab something up. I also really like the idea of being able to block the ducting for when I am not on track, nice touch. Since this is my DD and all. I want to limit my mods to just being able to get around the track. Not looking for more power...Not looking for crazy bodywork. Just want to enjoy the ST -which is a **** ton of fun on the track (when the brakes are working).

Anyway, the brakes are back to how they should be...Sadly, I did not have the time to put the stock pads back in, so I am still running the XP10s on the street for now, but I want to swap them out as they sound and feel like they are wanting to eat the rotors (they like to be warm apparently).
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Guys, any ideas where I might purchase braided front brake lines?
All I can seem to find are full front and rear lines for the RS. I assume that it would be better to do full front and rear for the ST if I have to go that route...are the RS and ST rears are the same?
 

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Don't you have the RS front brakes? I thought I had seen the Brembos on your YCW install thread. If so, then you will need the RS braided front brake lines. TCE Performance sells the kit ($109 for RS front and rear lines or just $69 for the RS front lines).

TCE Performance
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Don't you have the RS front brakes? I thought I had seen the Brembos on your YCW install thread. If so, then you will need the RS braided front brake lines. TCE Performance sells the kit ($109 for RS front and rear lines or just $69 for the RS front lines).

TCE Performance
Yes I do. I completely forgot that I replaced the ST lines with RS lines. Thanks

CrashMW
 

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You definitely need to look into an air deflector, my brakes get hot very easily with just medium braking on winter tires and cold ambient temp. I think they don't get any airflow at all without some sort of air guidance. The VT stage 2 is the best option for those who track and use their cars in the snow; the typical control arm mounted deflectors will drag on the snow and pile it up unless you don't mind removing them before the winter.
 

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Cutting the rubber around the wheel well area and cutting back the dust shield, and I've had no issues on a high brake demand track. RS breaks and pads.

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Coming off track with brake temperatures over 600 degrees is not unusual. I moved up to Castrol SRF, after serious boiling once or twice and sponginess with other fluids. With fresh Castrol SRF, and some air flow, I seem to be able to run on track indefinitely. I have run several "open track" events staying out about an hour at a time. And have run events at a half hour on, and a half hour off, for two hours out of 4 on track, so going back on track while brakes are still very warm.
Somewhere around this forum or on facebook: TeamSparrowSpeed are photos of the air deflector scoops that I made, and the corresponding holes in the shields with stock 2013 ST brakes. I use Carbotech XP10 front XP8 rear. I replaced the master cylinder when it seemed I had a vacuum boost leak that nobody would confirm. I have replaced stock calipers, and several sets of stock rotors. Last time out I ran down an RS by out braking him.
 

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I would use the Castrol srf fluid. Its got the highest wet boiling point of all the brake fluids. It might be more expensive but its a safety issue.
If you don't run full brake cooling then you should bleed the brakes between sessions, it's a small price to pay for some extra safety.

Also how old was the brake fluid you had when you started the track day? Brake fluid is very hygroscopic meaning it absorbs moisture.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
The brake fluid was about a month old (unopened in the Mogul container).
The day before the event, I opened the Motul, poured it into the Motive brake bleeder, and proceeded to flush the system.
So, from that perspective, the fluid was only a day old.

I will search for the team sparrow sport Focus ST brake mods.

Thanks,
Mike
 

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The brake fluid was about a month old (unopened in the Mogul container).
The day before the event, I opened the Motul, poured it into the Motive brake bleeder, and proceeded to flush the system.
So, from that perspective, the fluid was only a day old.

I will search for the team sparrow sport Focus ST brake mods.

Thanks,
Mike
I switched to Castrol SRF for extra protection (I previously used Motul 600), but one key is definitely the dust/heat shields (inboard of the rotor). You have to remove them for the VT Ducts. I tried to modify the stock ones along with the VT kit and ran a small hose directly to the center of the rotor, but it was a disaster. Removing the dust shields and going back to normal VT ducts made a big difference. Obviously I'd like to sell my kit since it's now off the car, but they also make a stage 1 kit, that looks like it could be pretty effective as well and should fit any year. Honestly if I was doing it again, I'd be looking to use something like the stage 1, but with a hose or extended design to get closer to center of the rotor. You really can't route a hose from the front through the suspension to get to the back center of the rotor.
 

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Crash- a tip here that I learned and you may already know- tap the calipers with a rubber mallet to free up and bubbles that are “stubborn” when bleeding.

As far as feedback. I use motul 660 and some modified dust shields and they work fine with rs calipers/rotors/carbo techs at Watkins Glen/ Pitt Race/Mid Ohio. But I have never driven LS, I know the elevation must be somewhat tough? Maybe you are over braking ;).


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I think that my lsd helps with the tvc. My friend and I same day, pads group and I’m big turbo, lsd bigger speeds, he stage 3 and no lsd he borked his brakes and mine survived. I’m cut flaps and kydex air deflector only as he was, it was the inside tire fire I think that the brakes were trying to stop that overheated his.. We do big braking from 125 to 65 at the end of the straight at Thompson too and I was great at end of day.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I think that my lsd helps with the tvc. My friend and I same day, pads group and I’m big turbo, lsd bigger speeds, he stage 3 and no lsd he borked his brakes and mine survived. I’m cut flaps and kydex air deflector only as he was, it was the inside tire fire I think that the brakes were trying to stop that overheated his.. We do big braking from 125 to 65 at the end of the straight at Thompson too and I was great at end of day.
I appreciate all the comments. I'm actually supposed to take the car in tomorrow for LSD install.
Based upon the feedback of this forum, I Also plan on pulling the heat shields for all future track days, and will get the VT stage 1 kit per danmad. I will look into ducting from there... Likely will make the change to SRF fluid as well... What the heck?

Now, has anyone heard about needing to cycle the abs while bleeding or flushing the brakes? If so, how is this done?

CrashMW
 

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Crashmw... How much are you paying to have the lsd installed?
Did you already buy it to have your mechanic install it?

I really want an lsd. I had an 05 srt-4 and it helped a lot on track with that car..
 
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