[jdub1981]

Ahh ok...i can put a pid into torque and most of the time the response is "No Response" or "no data". This time it responds with an answer to my equation. This stuff is kinda tuff. I guess if youve been doing it awhile you learn the ins and out of the different protocols.

 

[Bugasu]

Ahh ok...i can put a pid into torque and most of the time the response is "No Response" or "no data". This time it responds with an answer to my equation. This stuff is kinda tuff. I guess if youve been doing it awhile you learn the ins and out of the different protocols.

It can definitely be confusing if you don't know the protocol. In our vehicles, there's quite a few protocols and techniques used over the CAN network. You have the required OBD/UDS, fit into the CAN Network. Just to get a good core understanding, you can try reading info on this:
1) How CAN sends data over the network, disregarding any protocol. This is covered in ISO11898. This is the "physical" and "data-link" layers. It governs how the electronics work and how data is sent over the network.
2) Next, what data is being sent over the network? Well, A LOT of different protocols and traffic are capable. Most (but not all!) will build on top of ISO15765-2, which defines a network layer/transport layer on top of the core CAN system. It describes ways to send more than one data packet's worth of continuous data between two devices.
3) Now we can usually get to the protocol. OBDII is in SAE J1979 / ISO15031-5. UDS is in ISO14229-1, ISO14229-2, and ISO14229-3. Both have core definitions (how does the protocol work) and also special rules for when they're used explicitly on a CAN network (UDS on CAN, OBD on CAN).

This isn't to say these aren't the only protocols used. The protocol used by your driver window module to tell the passenger window module to roll its window down will be in the CAN format, but that doesn't mean it has to use the addressing, services, or anything else like OBD or UDS. In UDS and OBD, the "header" has it's 11 or 29 bit address, but in Ford's internal protocol those might not even be listed. UDS and OBD are governed for diagnostic purposes only, but it would be silly to think that's all the traffic you'll ever see on the CAN bus, so try not to get stuck in the frame of mind that all headers are addresses, or that data always has to be a certain format, and you should be good to go!

 

[Xicutioner4768]

It can definitely be confusing if you don't know the protocol. In our vehicles, there's quite a few protocols and techniques used over the CAN network. You have the required OBD/UDS, fit into the CAN Network. Just to get a good core understanding, you can try reading info on this:
1) How CAN sends data over the network, disregarding any protocol. This is covered in ISO11898. This is the "physical" and "data-link" layers. It governs how the electronics work and how data is sent over the network.
2) Next, what data is being sent over the network? Well, A LOT of different protocols and traffic are capable. Most (but not all!) will build on top of ISO15765-2, which defines a network layer/transport layer on top of the core CAN system. It describes ways to send more than one data packet's worth of continuous data between two devices.
3) Now we can usually get to the protocol. OBDII is in SAE J1979 / ISO15031-5. UDS is in ISO14229-1, ISO14229-2, and ISO14229-3. Both have core definitions (how does the protocol work) and also special rules for when they're used explicitly on a CAN network (UDS on CAN, OBD on CAN).

This isn't to say these aren't the only protocols used. The protocol used by your driver window module to tell the passenger window module to roll its window down will be in the CAN format, but that doesn't mean it has to use the addressing, services, or anything else like OBD or UDS. In UDS and OBD, the "header" has it's 11 or 29 bit address, but in Ford's internal protocol those might not even be listed. UDS and OBD are governed for diagnostic purposes only, but it would be silly to think that's all the traffic you'll ever see on the CAN bus, so try not to get stuck in the frame of mind that all headers are addresses, or that data always has to be a certain format, and you should be good to go!

I don't believe UDS is government mandated. For example there are no current production GM vehicles that support UDS. GM vehicles use a proprietary GMLAN protocol defined by the spec GMW3110.

 

[Xicutioner4768]

Ahh ok...i can put a pid into torque and most of the time the response is "No Response" or "no data". This time it responds with an answer to my equation. This stuff is kinda tuff. I guess if youve been doing it awhile you learn the ins and out of the different protocols.

Yep, it's a pain. Now imagine having to know every OEMs protocols like Keyword, UDS, GMLAN, CCP, XCP, future(ish) network types like MOST, FlexRay, BroadR (including TCP/IP, AVB), CAN FD, etc...

That's basically my job.

 

[Bugasu]

I don't believe UDS is government mandated. For example there are no current production GM vehicles that support UDS. GM vehicles use a proprietary GMLAN protocol defined by the spec GMW3110.

I stand corrected! Ford does follow it, at least, with their internal IDS system for diagnostics, so hence why I bring it up.

The worst part is even with all these "standards", there's so much manufacturer specific garbage and like you say, a billion protocols are still used.
It's all locked away in expensive to get to places, at least from a hobbyist standpoint.

 

[Xicutioner4768]

I stand corrected! Ford does follow it, at least, with their internal IDS system for diagnostics, so hence why I bring it up.

The worst part is even with all these "standards", there's so much manufacturer specific garbage and like you say, a billion protocols are still used.
It's all locked away in expensive to get to places, at least from a hobbyist standpoint.

Yeah Ford and Chrysler are currently using UDS for their diagnostics. Ford production ECUs will only support UDS and J1979. Some Ford development ECUs support CCP/XCP. As far as I'm aware J1979 is the only mandated diagnostic protocol. I imagine when BroadR (Automotive Ethernet) takes over, which I believe it will, then we'll see a new mandated protocol emerge.

 

[Bugasu]

Yeah Ford and Chrysler are currently using UDS for their diagnostics. Ford production ECUs will only support UDS and J1979. Some Ford development ECUs support CCP/XCP. As far as I'm aware J1979 is the only mandated diagnostic protocol. I imagine when BroadR (Automotive Ethernet) takes over, which I believe it will, then we'll see a new mandated protocol emerge.

One of the DoIPs of some kind?
I'd love to just plug into an ethernet port and be able to poll a webserver for all the info I ever need. No tools necessary, all on the car.
I did notice CCP stuff in IDS code, which I now assume is there for their internal engineering menus. From what I could tell none of it was working with my ECU when I was monkeying with it, so that makes sense

 

[Xicutioner4768]

One of the DoIPs of some kind?
I'd love to just plug into an ethernet port and be able to poll a webserver for all the info I ever need. No tools necessary, all on the car.
I did notice CCP stuff in IDS code, which I now assume is there for their internal engineering menus. From what I could tell none of it was working with my ECU when I was monkeying with it, so that makes sense

Don't hold your breath. Broad R uses a different physical layer than traditional Ethernet. You would need a converted box of some sort. Broad R uses UTP like CAN does. We sell such a thing, but it's $500. I'm sure once production cars have Broad R you'll see cheaper stuff come out from other companies that's marketed towards enthusiasts. Once you have a converter though you can use free programs like WireShark to spy on the traffic.

 

[jdub1981]

Don't hold your breath. Broad R uses a different physical layer than traditional Ethernet. You would need a converted box of some sort. Broad R uses UTP like CAN does. We sell such a thing, but it's $500. I'm sure once production cars have Broad R you'll see cheaper stuff come out from other companies that's marketed towards enthusiasts. Once you have a converter though you can use free programs like WireShark to spy on the traffic.

Are you guys talking about Fiber Channel? Im running a small network at my workplace that is supposedly Fiber channel capable. We dont run it, yet, but im somewhat familiar with its capabilities.

 

[Xicutioner4768]

Are you guys talking about Fiber Channel? Im running a small network at my workplace that is supposedly Fiber channel capable. We dont run it, yet, but im somewhat familiar with its capabilities.

MOST 150 is fiber, but that's mainly for media stuff like streaming video and SMSC owns the standard instead of it being open. Sounds like failure to me.

 

[Golday]

Guys, that was quite a read to go through almost 60-something pages of information.

I have a small question, first I have to clarify the situation I'm having now:
- I have a 2013 Focus Titanium, European version, the version the dealer sells in dubai has the monochrome 3.5 inch screen, but the car has SYNC, Bluetooth, USB, and the works
- Bought a Sony 4.2 inch color System, installed it, all working fine except for SYNC: Blutooth, USB, voice commands
- Part number of the old screen is BM5T-18xxxxx-BE, the color one is AM5T-18xxxxx-CG, possible mismatch
- Got the ELM327 modified USB cable, Focccus, tried to load the firmware of the BM5T color screen, which is BM5T-14D358-CH
- As I expected, it is not easy, vbf fails every time, sometimes at 10%, 35%, etc..

Any advice? tips? things to try?

So far I tried with the car in ON, and another time while it is actually running.

This is the cable I got: New Black USB Modified ELM327 Elmconfig Forscan Ford Focus Mondeo Kuga s Max | eBay

Any tips or advice would be highly appreciated.

Cheers,

 

[jdub1981]

Guys, that was quite a read to go through almost 60-something pages of information.

I have a small question, first I have to clarify the situation I'm having now:
- I have a 2013 Focus Titanium, European version, the version the dealer sells in dubai has the monochrome 3.5 inch screen, but the car has SYNC, Bluetooth, USB, and the works
- Bought a Sony 4.2 inch color System, installed it, all working fine except for SYNC: Blutooth, USB, voice commands
- Part number of the old screen is BM5T-18xxxxx-BE, the color one is AM5T-18xxxxx-CG, possible mismatch
- Got the ELM327 modified USB cable, Focccus, tried to load the firmware of the BM5T color screen, which is BM5T-14D358-CH
- As I expected, it is not easy, vbf fails every time, sometimes at 10%, 35%, etc..

Any advice? tips? things to try?

So far I tried with the car in ON, and another time while it is actually running.

This is the cable I got: New Black USB Modified ELM327 Elmconfig Forscan Ford Focus Mondeo Kuga s Max | eBay

Any tips or advice would be highly appreciated.

Cheers,

If what you are trying is even possible then ive read that updating calibrations with Elm327 type devices is incredibly wreckless due to the overwhelming amount of chinese clones with piss poor manufacturing. It is recommended to use a device that has a minimum connection speed of 1Mbps. Many clones are unable to maintain 125Kbps without drops. If you can maintain the connection it may take a VERY long time to do the upload.

The sync system is stored on the APIM so swapping screens wont give that option.

 

[Golday]

If what you are trying is even possible then ive read that updating calibrations with Elm327 type devices is incredibly wreckless due to the overwhelming amount of chinese clones with piss poor manufacturing. It is recommended to use a device that has a minimum connection speed of 1Mbps. Many clones are unable to maintain 125Kbps without drops. If you can maintain the connection it may take a VERY long time to do the upload.

So can someone please direct me to a cable that is not a chinese replica and works fine? a link to ebay or amazon so I can get the cable please? and a cable that can upload vbf files? I really NEED something that works

The sync system is stored on the APIM so swapping screens wont give that option.

I'm not swapping screens to make sync work. My car already has SYNC, and the car I got the screen from also had SYNC. all I want to do is reflash the screen's firmware to make it recognize the SYNC i have in my car, given the difference in part number,

makes sense?

P.S. somebody's prompt response would be highly appreciated, I Will not even have a radio in my car till I resolve this. I plead to your human side, please help

EDIT: I got a couple of blue screens on Windows 7 today while trying to upload the firmware

 

[Golday]

Will the OBDLink MX Bluetooth do the trick? did anyone try to upload firmware with it and succeeded?

Thanks

 

[jdub1981]

Will the OBDLink MX Bluetooth do the trick? did anyone try to upload firmware with it and succeeded?

Thanks

The problem is noone knows what the NEW fiware names are. They change to a new letter with each new update. The only people who can find out what the new letters are those with a VCM2 or have some kind of passthrough device and have a subscription to FMP. With those 2 things they can reprogram everything themselves and dont need focccus.

The russians have gotten it to work but it is hard as hell trying to translate the wording just to find out word for wword how to do the update. Plus...i think you might need the seed/key to get it to work.

 

[Golday]

The problem is noone knows what the NEW fiware names are. They change to a new letter with each new update. The only people who can find out what the new letters are those with a VCM2 or have some kind of passthrough device and have a subscription to FMP. With those 2 things they can reprogram everything themselves and dont need focccus.

The russians have gotten it to work but it is hard as hell trying to translate the wording just to find out word for wword how to do the update. Plus...i think you might need the seed/key to get it to work.

To be honest I got this solution from a Russian guy, he is the one who gave me this firmware version, and it worked with a guy in Australia who had the same problem as mine, but still I need at least to be able to do a full successful upload, and I have a ****ty cable.. Which one would work? do I have to buy the Russian one?

 

[jdub1981]

Will the OBDLink MX Bluetooth do the trick? did anyone try to upload firmware with it and succeeded?

Thanks

The ELM is incredibly difficult to do the update apparently. I think its because its unable to maintain a consitent high baud rate. It also requires some setup procedures in the device manager. They guys on the focccus forum frequently mention fails during the upload. Sometime 6 or more. Sometimes at 99%. According to the Focccus wiki if it fails diring calibration of the PCM, TCM or IPC you will brick the module and it MUST be restored using as build data by a dealer( or someone with IDS.

 

[Golday]

The ELM is incredibly difficult to do the update apparently. I think its because its unable to maintain a consitent high baud rate. It also requires some setup procedures in the device manager. They guys on the focccus forum frequently mention fails during the upload. Sometime 6 or more. Sometimes at 99%. According to the Focccus wiki if it fails diring calibration of the PCM, TCM or IPC you will brick the module and it MUST be restored using as build data by a dealer( or someone with IDS.

So I have no other options but get the Russian ELS cable, apparently it is much faster and could do the trick..

If not, would the ODBLink MX be able to upload a full vbf successfully or not?

 

[jdub1981]

So I have no other options but get the Russian ELS cable, apparently it is much faster and could do the trick..

If not, would the ODBLink MX be able to upload a full vbf successfully or not?

I dunno. I think so, its just an upgraded elm327. The real ELM327 is made in Canada and has the capability to do the update. The ELS27 is a FFclub.ru adapter that the forum bought a bunch of and then modified it to do the update. They way it reads, its quite possibly the canadian version of the ELM327 with MSCAN mod. You can apparently only get it from them. Either way you will still need the firmware names and some modules have more than 1 firmware which has to uploaded in a specific order.

 

[jdub1981]

I dunno. I think so, its just an upgraded elm327. The real ELM327 is made in Canada and has the capability to do the update. The ELS27 is a FFclub.ru adapter that the forum bought a bunch of and then modified it to do the update. They way it reads, its quite possibly the canadian version of the ELM327 with MSCAN mod. You can apparently only get it from them. Either way you will still need the firmware names and some modules have more than 1 firmware which has to uploaded in a specific order.

By the time you buy their adapter, an OBDLink MX, and the elm you have, you would probably be fairly close to cost of a Ford Mongoose Pro from Drew-Tech. With that and a $32 3day pass for using FMP you can update all the modules with an officially licensed product and software that is proven to work.