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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey big turbo guys running a stock clutch, I?m curious to know how it is holding up?
This being my first manual car and with 25k miles on the clock I?m wondering if I should change the clutch before going my big turbo build.
I am planning on a gtx3076r gen2 but it?s still up in the air. My end game I want to reach 500whp I still have some research to do before that?s possible.
 

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I assume you're going to be building the motor for that kind of power? I would definitely upgrade the clutch when you build the motor.... no brainer. Many guys in mid 300 low 400 land on stock clutch doing fine as long as you're not drag racing on it.
 

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anything over 400whp is going to need a built engine and a upgraded clutch... if you plan to get any miles out of it. I personally don't see the point of any of it without an LSD either. I one wheel burn with just stage 3.. I need better tires but I have every traction mod possible.
 

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I am at about 330-350 to the wheel with my tiny GTX turbo. Clutch has almost 60k on it, made 3 passes down the drag strip till on the 3rd one the clutch slipped horribly. I have a spec at home waiting to go in anyways.

But 500+ wheel hp you will for sure need an upgraded clutch
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
The upgrades will come one at a time for the 500hp line, but that?s toward the end. Anyone know what the stock fuel system hp is limited to? I know that will need to be changed as well for 500. I may keep the stock clutch and just get around 350hp before getting the rest done
 

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Well, i'm an avid autocrosser and recently tallied up my runs at over 450 hard launches and hard shifts to second, i've done 10 track days, have an lsd, big turbo and always run re71rs or more recently hoosiers. 55k miles and no perceived clutch slip yet. Big turbo went on this summer but lsd has been in for 30k or 3 years. It's how you drive i suppose too. i'm certainly not changing it until it fails. I lauched yesterday 18 times on hoosier a7s off a 3000rpm lc.
 
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that chart is good, but big picture it starts to become a slippery slope past 350-400hp. above that stock fuel system isnt enough, whether its being octane limited on 93 or fuel volume limited running e mixes. you can throw on a wmi kit to get you a little bit more, but by far the better solution IMO is port injection with E mixes. you saw the above comment about engine/drivetrain reliability above that limit.

I think like you said.... 350hp goal for your initial 'stage' is probably a good idea. then go from there as money/time etc allows.
 

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The upgrades will come one at a time for the 500hp line, but that?s toward the end. Anyone know what the stock fuel system hp is limited to? I know that will need to be changed as well for 500. I may keep the stock clutch and just get around 350hp before getting the rest done
Unless you are hell bent on the 500whp number I would consider a smaller turbo.

To run a GTX3076r on the stock fuel system will be like driving a prius under 5000rpm. For a decent goal and head room look at the GTX2971R. It could get you to 450whp but would be a lot nicer to drive while you are doing your build.
 

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My thoughts -

The stock engine can handle 500 hp, for how long is anybody's guess and has much to do with how it's tuned and how you drive it. You'll need to extend the stock fuel system (for now) with either port injection, water-methanol or a higher concentration of methanol up to 100%.

I find it strange that there more than a few stock block K motor Honda that aren't designed to be boosted yet are making over 500hp on stock hardware and are beaten on constantly. Yet everybody in the ST community is suggesting to build the engine at 450? Sure a built motor is insurance from user errors, tuning blunders and bad tanks of fuel. But if you mind those issues I don't see why an ST can't survive a few years on the stock block at 500+ especially since most ST owners don't run their cars hard enough, often enough for it really be a concern.

Budgetary issues force me to use the stock engine but I might be able to upgrade the clutch after all, I will know more in the next few days. For example last time I talked to ACT they were waiting on Ford to ship them throw out bearings.

I run slicks at the track exclusively and I'm curious to how well the stock clutch will tolerate being launched with more power. The torque is more linear with the larger turbo though it might handle it just fine but to do what I need to do, it will need to be upgraded.

Why it would be like driving a Prius? Response is dictated more by the fuel used and cam timing. On pump gas even a GTX28xx won't be nearly as responsive/fun without running better fuel/water injection. GTX30xx will make it slightly worse but the major power increase over all the GTX28xx is worth the price of admission and response issues are easily solved with better fuels.

Ask @SIstomper how much better his car ran on 100% E85 vs pump gas and that's with a GT2860R aka Disco Potato

If port injection is out of your reach then invest in water methanol injection. You can continue to use it even after you have upgraded your fuel system to handle 100% ethanol, it will cool the intake tract further than ethanol alone, increase the octane to allow even more aggressive timing and add even more oxygen.

As soon as I get my controller back from AEM, I plan on running either 1,000cc, 1,500cc or 2,000cc. I need to see if pushing that much doesn't cause any distribution problems and force the use of direct injection.

Finally I'd consider the GTX3576 Gen II if you want the GTX3076, same spool more output.
 
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My thoughts -

The stock engine can handle 500 hp, for how long is anybody's guess and has much to do with how it's tuned and how you drive it. You'll need to extend the stock fuel system (for now) with either port injection, water-methanol or a higher concentration of methanol up to 100%.

I find it strange that there more than a few stock block K motor Honda that aren't designed to be boosted yet are making over 500hp on stock hardware and are beaten on constantly. Yet everybody in the ST community is suggesting to build the engine at 450? Sure a built motor is insurance from user errors, tuning blunders and bad tanks of fuel. But if you mind those issues I don't see why an ST can't survive a few years on the stock block at 500+ especially since most ST owners don't run their cars hard enough, often enough for it really be a concern.

Budgetary issues force me to use the stock engine but I might be able to upgrade the clutch after all, I will know more in the next few days. For example last time I talked to ACT they were waiting on Ford to ship them throw out bearings.

I run slicks at the track exclusively and I'm curious to how well the stock clutch will tolerate being launched with more power. The torque is more linear with the larger turbo though it might handle it just fine but to do what I need to do, it will need to be upgraded.

Why it would be like driving a Prius? Response is dictated more by the fuel used and cam timing. On pump gas even a GTX28xx won't be nearly as responsive/fun without running better fuel/water injection. GTX30xx will make it slightly worse but the major power increase over all the GTX28xx is worth the price of admission and response issues are easily solved with better fuels.

Ask @SIstomper how much better his car ran on 100% E85 vs pump gas and that's with a GT2860R aka Disco Potato

If port injection is out of your reach then invest in water methanol injection. You can continue to use it even after you have upgraded your fuel system to handle 100% ethanol, it will cool the intake tract further than ethanol alone, increase the octane to allow even more aggressive timing and add even more oxygen.

As soon as I get my controller back from AEM, I plan on running either 1,000cc, 1,500cc or 2,000cc. I need to see if pushing that much doesn't cause any distribution problems and force the use of direct injection.

Finally I'd consider the GTX3576 Gen II if you want the GTX3076, same spool more output.
Lol did you read my comment and OP's?. He said he was going to run the stock fuel system for a while first and I said it will be ****ed for lag (hence the prius under 5k rpm).

Timing won't do **** on a 3076r. Even with all the magic timing the best pro tuners here throw at the GTX2867r there is no way to spool it to full boost on pump gas/stock fuel system (~25psi) before 3300ish rpm. So now you put a 30 series exhaust housing and a 76mm compressor wheel on the same setup. No timing is going to get that thing spooling at a decent rate, it is a big turbo and designed for the 500whp+ target which will require aux fuel or if you are retarded enough a methanol injection system trying to compensate for fuelling. Also note that if you are running e85 you should be able to reach MBT on this by itself so WMI could be a waste. Maybe a tuner can chime in about this but my understanding is once you reach MBT of an engine throwing more timing won't do diddly squat.

My point still stands that a 3076r on stock fueling is as useful as a nun's **** and would most likely get it's ass whooped by a stage 2 stock turbo car due to area under the curve being so small.

Also regarding why do people build at 450whp, I believe that the pro tuners such as stratified would recommend this (actually at 420whp) based on emperical evidence obtained through their experience tuning thousands of cars, hundreds at least of which are big turbo. Everyone has their own opinion but I prefer to base decisions off of experience and sound advice from people who have been exposed to the platform. Most people prefer the cost of an engine build with their own block rather than the additional cost of a new core + the stuff around of a tow truck and picking up pieces of your engine off the side of the road.
 

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It won't lag that bad. Have you driven a car with a GTX30xx?

Yeah he said stock fuel system, which why I suggested water methanol injection. Pump gas doesn't make GTX28xx cars nearly as responsive as it is on race gas, water-meth or ethanol. So I'm not sure what your point is.

Richard @ Aquamist suggest 1.5 cc per 1 hp when asked about suggested jet sizes for a water methanol system (15% of fuel) as good starting point. 25% is considered aggressive but many run more than that.

So I'm retarded for following industry standards?

What empirical evidence? Have they actually done a survey? I'd be very interested in the results.
 

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It won't lag that bad. Have you driven a car with a GTX30xx?

Yeah he said stock fuel system, which why I suggested water methanol injection. Pump gas doesn't make GTX28xx cars nearly as responsive as it is on race gas, water-meth or ethanol. So I'm not sure what your point is.

Richard @ Aquamist suggest 1.5 cc per 1 hp when asked about suggested jet sizes for a water methanol system (15% of fuel) as good starting point. 25% is considered aggressive but many run more than that.

So I'm retarded for following industry standards?

What empirical evidence? Have they actually done a survey? I'd be very interested in the results.
How exactly does octane help with spool time?
 

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How exactly does octane help with spool time?
Isn't it obvious? The higher the octane the more you can tune for MBT (Max Best Timing/Torque). The ST's engine is octane limited.

It helps spool because you create more exhaust energy with better fuels.

The stock turbo has no headroom and spool is not really an issue.
 

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It won't lag that bad. Have you driven a car with a GTX30xx?

Yeah he said stock fuel system, which why I suggested water methanol injection. Pump gas doesn't make GTX28xx cars nearly as responsive as it is on race gas, water-meth or ethanol. So I'm not sure what your point is.

Richard @ Aquamist suggest 1.5 cc per 1 hp when asked about suggested jet sizes for a water methanol system (15% of fuel) as good starting point. 25% is considered aggressive but many run more than that.

So I'm retarded for following industry standards?

What empirical evidence? Have they actually done a survey? I'd be very interested in the results.
Never implied you were retarded, I said if someone tried to run a gtx3076r just using WMI they would be as either they will have to push WMI way further than safe to do so or supplement with port injection which will most likely render the WMI fairly useless.

My only point, still the same point, is that the GTX3076r is a poor choice on stock fueling system. OP said he wanted to run it on stock fuelling for a while, the GTX3076R will be laggy asf.

No I have not driven a 3076 car but I have driven a 2971 and also own a 2867r. I looked at Bugasa's big turbo thread and his predictions about the turbos I have driven line up exactly. Then I looked at his estimation on the 3076r and well you can go look yourself, it's laggy. Of course you can use port injection, stroker build, WMI to increase spool but OP said he won't be doing that for a while, hence my comment.
 

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Isn't it obvious? The higher the octane the more you can tune for MBT (Max Best Timing/Torque). The ST's engine is octane limited.

It helps spool because you create more exhaust energy with better fuels.

The stock turbo has no headroom and spool is not really an issue.
I thought more octane/fuel such as with water/meth will allow to run higher boost in the upper rpms (cooler cylinder temps, a bit more octane/fuel headroom, more knock resistant)and increase MBT in the mid range.

Look at the Stratified a curve when tuning for meth without. Don't see any increase spool time. Unless I'm missing something? It just doesn't make sense to me that adding more fuel creates more exhaust pressure which spoils the turbo sooner.




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I thought more octane/fuel such as with water/meth will allow to run higher boost in the upper rpms (cooler cylinder temps, a bit more octane/fuel headroom, more knock resistant)and increase MBT in the mid range.

Look at the Stratified a curve when tuning for meth without. Don't see any increase spool time. Unless I'm missing something? It just doesn't make sense to me that adding more fuel creates more exhaust pressure which spoils the turbo sooner.


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More octane and cooler inlet charged air allows more timing advance, one of the main advantages to ethanol and methanol. The amount of fuel added allows for more boost to be run so you don't have a lean condition.

Are you talking about increase as in more spool time or decrease as in less spool time? I didn't say exhaust pressure I said exhaust energy (BTU's), despite ethanol having fewer BTU's in it than gasoline the extra oxygen and usually quite a bit more timing advance than gasoline, it spools turbos quickly.
 
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