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Questions and Answers on water/methanol injection by Aquamist

222K views 835 replies 44 participants last post by  Duece McCracken 
#1 · (Edited)

My name is Richard Lamb and part of Aquamist team, I am available to discuss any
water/methanol injection related concepts and Aquamist related applications.

There has been a great deal of discussions lately on this forum and someone on this forum
has prompted me to participate here and contribute something useful. For any sales questions,
EdgeAutosport will be the folks to ask as they are our authorized US dealer.
I need some questions to get me started so if you have any, please post here.

**********


Click on image below to download user manual and ST specific wiring diagram here:








Lists of some unique capability of Aquamist, not offered by other systems:
1. Fittings: .......... Aquamist's unique Compression tube fittings that do not leak over time.
2. Spray jet: .......... All designed and manufactured in our own machine shop.
3. Fluid pressure: .......... Constant pressure setting through out the injection cycle. (deadhead at 160psi)
4. Turbine based flow monitoring/failsafe: .......... Sensor is designed from ground up and manufactured in house.
5. IDC based: .......... Aquamist reads fuel flow to ensure it matches engine load in all gears accurately.
6. Delivery method: .......... PWM-valve, controlling flow similar to the OEM fuel injection system
7. True linearity: .......... Only PWM-valve system can guarantee true progressive delivery.
8. Only Aquamist: .......... Supply the entire package to guarantee full system integration.


Doing the right thing:
installation tips and recommendations

Aquamist is not expensive when you see this listing:
The price/performance comparison chart

 
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#2 ·
Welcome Richard, glad to see you made it on here.

I am currently in the middle of making a manifold spacer function as a port methanol injection. Is there any benefit to running a 100%(neat) methanol over, say, 70/30 mix with distilled water? I am looking at it as more of the octane booster to help me achieve a target hp rating of 470.
 
#17 ·
Sorry to have taken so long to give you a credible answer. It is a short one, you can run both without and ill effect.

100% methanol injection will always work, providing you go crazy. There is a danger point when the air/meth ratio is near the stochiometric region, if there is a misfire during the valve overlap period, it will ignite the entire incoming mixture and blow your inlet tract apart.

Running 70/30 is safer as the water molecule will from a barrier to minimise a painful backfire.

For lower fuel/methanol ratio, it doesn't happen because the methanol charged air is not as easy to ignite until it reaches Air/meth ratio of 6.6/1.
 
#4 ·
Yes, took some time to organise this and be registered.

Two factors that will affect your application on methanol concentration. Ecu's ability to trim fuel and sparking energy.

Can you give be some ideas of both?
This topic is quite involved.
this is out of my realm of knowledge, so sadly I dont know how to answer that. However I see @Bugasu is here. he has a very good understanding of ECU function
 
#5 ·
Richard,

I'm highly considering WMI as an addition to my setup, and your controller simply looks to be one of the best on the market.

My main question is this:
I really like the idea of IDC based injection, but on this car one of the things utilized by the ECU is LSHL (low speed, high-load) fueling, which I believe is primarily used to prevent LSPI (low speed pre-ignition)

During this low RPM section (under 4000RPM), Ford ECUs inject gasoline twice with the same pulse-width (I don't know how it's timed 100% though). If I use your system, how does the IDC trigger work? I have concerns that if I set it too low, the system will trigger during normal driving when my pulsewidths are similarly low but I'm only doing a single injection. Like wise, if I set it too high, then I don't inject during the LSHL period and will only do it after 4000RPM?

Do you have a solution for this, or do you consider it better in this regard to use a manifold pressure based sensor?

Thanks,
Steve
 
#8 ·
Thanks for the your kind comment.

This LSHL is very interesting, I have not come across this over the years, however, it is quite common on diesel engines. For whatever the reason it is for, pre-ignition or emission. This is new to me. Did Ford explain why? I can only assume the same amount of fuel is shared with two shorter duration pulses to maintain correct fuel flow.

The aquamist system detects the duty cycle % of the fuel injector signal, multiple injection events will not cause error reading. I had the pleasure of spending many hours per day for the last three weeks on OseaD's car. It was for a different reason, I was tracking down the source of an interference with his help and patience.

During those sessions, we configured the aquamist controller to display fuel duty cycle %. He took some videos and the fuel idc is extremely smooth and progressive under different engine loads. So the answer is, we have no problem decoding the Ford's LSHL system.

Boost based only flow control may not be the best way to inject water/methanol in my opinion. Without the RPM and IAT information. It will not represent true engine load. Depending on your view on how important it is to match fuel flow. That will be another topic to discuss. What do you think?
 
#13 ·
Just wanted to chime in and let everyone know we finished the trouble shooting yesterday and I've mixed my first batch of 50/50 today. Going to run at least a tank full before I log any data. I'm currently running a tune from Panda that's not for meth but Matt will be working with me as we make adjustments. I'm full stage 3 and last Dyno numbers were 280/370 from the Panda tune. I've currently got the 1.0mm nozzle installed without a reducer and was planning to see if this would work before I installed the .7 or .8 reducer. Hoping with proper tune, ill see around 310hp on the stock turbo with this addition. Please feel free to chime in and if anyone needs help with the install please contact me. I now know this system inside and out (literally) and would love to see this system on more ST's. This is without a doubt the most advanced system on the market as far tunability (is that a word?) but the down side is I have no experience or other members to pull from that has used this and already figured out the best setting for our platform. I'll be keeping you up to speed as we proceed.
 
#14 · (Edited)
I would like to extend my thanks to you for being so patient during the last three weeks of tracking down the interference issue. Most people would have given up.

The cause of the unstable meth flow reading on the gauge was due to the one wire. This wire shares the same bundle with the two injector signal pickup wire. It has not been this problem on many di systems until the Focus ST platform. As we all know, the Di technology development pace is super fast, new injector drivers are being introduced every nano second. We are just play catch-up all the time.

Since this wire is for third party stand-alone usage only, some after market piggyback used this signal to monitor water/meth flow, using their own specially written software. For the majority, it is rarely or never used.

So I asked OseaD to cut a track on the HFS4 controller so this wire is internally severed and can no longer bring in any induced spikes. Unfortunately is took three weeks to discover this. Screening and grounded the cable externally did not help as the interference was induced internally. It was a great relief is was finally found.

During this three weeks, OSeaD and I have gone through every part of the system, even disassembling the water pump to check for debris trapped in between the diaphragm. OseaD is now a fully qualified aquamist system expert, not by choice, but just happened. He will be updating the the thread below more frequently due to the recent issue. Please go to this thread for highly detail account of the aquamist install.
http://www.focusst.org/forum/focus-st-performance/31038-aquamist-hfs4-install-help.html

Meanwhile, I stay put and remain here, continue to contribute. If I don't know the answer, I will not fudge. I will do my best. So ask away.
 
#27 ·
I was wondering with your direct port set up, it might be an alternative to a port injection.

The HFS4 tracks the fuel flow naturally so the ECU doesn't have make modest fuel trim and left enough to co-fuel your target power of 470whp. I am working with OseaD to determine the maximum DC% of the OE fuel injector. This will show me how much actual fuel is injected, based on the figures posted. From there I can estimate the size of the meth jets required to achieve your power target.

Can anyone see a problem with this?
 
#28 ·
My setup is this.

I run a Devil's Own Kit.

Im running (4) 2GPH nozzles tapped for direct port in my Breedt intake manifold.

so I have a total of 8GPH. this equates to about 1008cc/min.

I run a 50/50 mix because I have the tank mounted in the hatch and don't feel like burning to death in an invisible flame.

I am considering relocating the battery and putting the tank and pump up front for added safety. and then i might run 100% but not sure yet. I cannot find a definative answer on whether its beneficial or not.

My daily tune is from Matt@Panda at this point and we are running 420WHP (APPROX VIA VDYNO)(DYNO NEXT WEEK FOR REAL NUMBERS)

My fuel trims are pulling 18% on average fuel and Im using the WMI to take it up a notch.

I am about to plumb in a solenoid for the injection and remove the check valve. I also have an AEM failsafe flow meter and am trying to figure out how to wire its failsafe mechanism to the boost controller to pop open the wastegate if it senses a failure.

I love it to death... My AFR is around 12.5-13 and the exhaust temps are wonderfully low.

I will post pics of my setup later if you guys like.

Thanks,
 
#29 ·
Not totally familiar with the DO system, assume it is a progressive system on boost. It appears you are running a great deal of w/m mixture (1008cc/min), more than we ever recommending with our system. But if it works well, why not.

For port injection, a solenoid valve is essential to minimise the dribbles from line decompression and overrun especially if the wm line is longer than 6 feet. Checkvalve is well known for leakage over time, risk of hydro-locking your engine is very real.

Relocating the pump and tank to the engine bay with minimise the dribble (checkvalved system) but there is a risk of water ingression to the pump. Seal it well. There are several places where water can enter the pump. Once the bearing is rusted, the pump motor will seize.

AEM failsafe will monitor your well being of the system. Doesn't they provide how it can be wired to drop boots? I believe a vendor from Stratified may help you on this. Do post your setup, I am here to discuss any setup in general.
 
#30 ·
Richard, when would you advise a check valve vs a solenoid? I was informed solenoids could fail over time, but the check valves are not electronic, and provide less issues?
 
#31 · (Edited)
The working principle of the checkvalve (CV) is very similar to a solenoid valve (SV). The main difference is force of the return spring that keeps the valve shut.

The checkvalve normally uses a 15psi spring to keep it close, cracks open when the fluid pressure exceeds it. The solenoid valve normally uses a 150-200psi spring to keep it shut, opening is assisted by a electromagnetic circuit. This means it is more resilient to leakage or ageing spring and the spring get weaker on elevated operating temperature in the engine bay.

There is another advantage the SV over the CV, there is little pressure drop because the passing fluid does have to act against the return spring. Most of the budget systems use a checkvalve because cost is low and does not require electronic control circuits. Some offer SV but you have to pay extra.

The most unwelcoming property of a CV is dribble after every spray event. Over the years, system pressure tends to be the best way to market their systems over their competitors. Only a few years ago 100psi was the norm and now 200-250psi. This has a detrimental effect on the amount of dribble after system deactivation causes coughing engines or backfiring. Pre-ignition cannot to be precluded. The dribble is solely caused by the decompression of the delivery hose, the longer the line and the higher the operating pressure the more it dribbles.

Aquamist only uses checkvalve in conjunction with a solenoid valve.

I hope I have explained this clearly. I can continue if anyone wants more details.
 
#32 · (Edited)
That's very clear, thanks. I too have a Devil's Own kit. Can I use any solenoid with the kit, such as an Aquamist solenoid, or would you advise I stay with one brand?

Also, when running both, where would you suggest those go in line? Check valve as close to the nozzle as possible and solenoid in between pump and tank?
 
#33 ·
I believe DO offers a solenoid valve. I can only assume they have an optional output to activate this valve. Aquamist's valve will not be compatible with the DO system.

Location of the valve is important. It need to be as close to the nozzles as possible otherwise the dribble will persist. If you have a solenoid valve, check valve is no longer necessary unless you run direct port, four nozzle per cylinder.
 
#34 ·
Thanks again for the quick response. I was planning to run both. You stated that the aquamist system runs both a CV and a solenoid. Where are the locations of those 2 in the aquamist system? I'm a bit confused since you said you don't need both unless you're doing direct port. I'm injecting pre TB in the coupler that mounts the cold side I/C pipe to the TB. Not sure what you'd recommend for that.
 
#35 · (Edited)
Aquamist always recommend using an inline CV for each nozzle or mulitiple CVJs (checkvalve jet) for direct port application.

Each port (runners) has cyclic vacuum pulses. If Checkvalve is not installed, the fluid within each delivery line will be siphoned into the engine after every injection event, causing all the problems listed on my last post. Placing a CV on each jet will stop this from happening, keeping the fluid in the line so no delay on the next activation, having to refilling the line + distributing manifold).

Aquamist uses:
SV to stop line decompression
CV to stop local siphoning
 
#36 ·
Richard,

Would it be possible to use a pintle based solenoid valve injection scheme (i.e. a repurposed fuel injector) to be the injector?
I've always wondered why there isn't a cross between the two nowadays.

I would think a modern fuel injector would be able to handle 50/50 methanol/water, and provide all the benefits needed by different parts in a standard WMI injection setup.
The check valve, solenoid, and nozzle would all be one integrated unit. You maintain a pressure in the line, and actuate the injector as necessary.

I'm assuming there's more to it than that, as the market has kind of divided supplemental fueling into WMI, Fifth Port, and Nitrous.
What am I missing?
 
#37 ·
Yes, this will work short term but a small risk of corrosion if a small amount of gasoline is not present.

The magnetic material used on the modern fuel injector is still the same for the past 50 years, soft iron. Unfortunately There just nothing out there to out perform its magnetic properties.

In the gasoline and ethanol mixture, there is very little opportunity for the water to be absorbed from the air. If it does, the percentage is extremely low. The gasoline coats the wetted part of the iron core and prevents any small trace of water molecules from making direct contact and start the corrosion process.

Unfortunately for wmi injection, even at 99.9% methanol, the iron core is not protected due to the absence of gasoline. A very small amount of water will cause problem. There are no provision in any current wmi system stopping the methanol from absorbing the moisture from the air. In time, the pinto the fuel injector will seize.

You might ask, why not add a small amount of oily additive to the methanol system. Unfortunately all wmi pump uses EPDM seals/valves, such swells up in the presence of hydrocarbon. One possible solution, use viton instead of EPDM but the methanol will attack the viton. The holy grail for this to work is a rubber material that will is resistive to both. So far I haven't found any. Dow Conning will help but the development cost will be too high for pump makers to looking into this. Catch 22.
 
#39 ·
Thanks for the info..

I plan on putting a check valve right before each nozzle, and am currently working on putting a solenoid before the distribution block...

As the the amount i'm running, I am tuned for it. plus I have reduced the pump pressure as to not flow quite so much... I think at WOT, I am pushing about 750-800 cc/min. I was reading that it needs to be about 15% of the fuel flow. And i think we have a consensus of the fuel injection flow rate on these cars to be about 1250 cc/min, which puts my at about 750 cc/min I want to flow with my WMI kit. I may be flowing a little more, but I like to be on the rich side if possible.

Now devils own does come with check valves, but they do offer the solenoid as well. They do not have check valves in each nozzle so I will plumb a check valve between each nozzle and the distribution block as close to the nozzle as possible.

As for relocating the pump to the engine bay. I think I'm gonna hold off. Since I am tuned for 50/50 and I run it like that, I don't think having the pump and the tank in the hatch is too bad. plus it keeps the pump out of the elements like you suggested.

Tanks for your input and I appreciate that even though you work with Aquamist, you are giving solid advice for people with other kits as well. I appreciate that alot!
 
#42 ·
with a solenoid in the line.. is their a special way to "prime the system"

Without my solenoid i just activated the controller until i had meth coming out of the nozzle( placed inside a bottle) and then screwed the nozzle back into its bung... with my solenoid now installed i cant seem to get the system to "prime"

I activated the pump and solenoid 3-4x for small bursts of time, and i get nothing but a ton of air pressure behind the solenoid.. and zero methanol flow
 
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